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| KerushiiAi |
Posted: Nov 18, 2006 6:22 pm |
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ポケット

Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 2497
Location: USA
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davedim wrote: I understand that you might have been upset by the death of someone so young, but to suggest that the homeless don't deserve to live... that's just horrible.
I might have misunderstood though. If so, then I apologise.
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The Eightfold Path is really hard to explain, and if you are interested in learning more, then I could PM you. I don't want to go way off topic. 
oh...i'm sorry you interpreted it that way...
it's hard to explain what i meant...i just feel that someone with so much potential doesn't deserve to die. i wasn't suggesting that the homeless deserve to die i'm sorry if i offended you!
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ok, could you? 'cause the internet sites made buddhism sound kinda...miserable. and i knew that couldn't be true!  |
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| .::carlito::. |
Posted: Nov 18, 2006 6:31 pm |
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クラゲ, 流れ星

Joined: 14 Oct 2006
Posts: 3609
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| I feel everyone has the right to live. We are all equal people. We should all show some respect. |
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| KerushiiAi |
Posted: Nov 18, 2006 7:01 pm |
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ポケット

Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 2497
Location: USA
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| do you believe someone can lose that right? |
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| .::carlito::. |
Posted: Nov 18, 2006 7:03 pm |
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クラゲ, 流れ星

Joined: 14 Oct 2006
Posts: 3609
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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^
Well, unless they've done something really bad and has shocked the world. |
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| Mansley |
Posted: Nov 18, 2006 7:07 pm |
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フレンジャー

Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 868
Location: Los Angeles, California
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.::carlito: wrote: We are all equal people.
i think this would be sufficient enough to start an entire new thread too. many people would argue this isn't the case, even at birth. i don't mean...people are worse...but some people just are meant to have more unfair lives than others. something like that. but that is for another thread and we've already drifted off-topic quite a bit. |
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| LightDay |
Posted: Nov 18, 2006 7:19 pm |
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大好きだよ。

Joined: 11 Nov 2006
Posts: 254
Location: Water Seven
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I think Buddhism can explain the equality in all beings. (I learned some before, 6 years, lol) But well, i won't talk any of it. I am quite lazy at the moment, muahaha!  |
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| del |
Posted: Nov 18, 2006 9:43 pm |
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大好きだよ。

Joined: 09 Jun 2006
Posts: 211
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
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From Richard Carrier's What an Atheist Ought to Stand For essay:
Quote: inquiry and doubt are essential checks against deception, self deception, and error Quote: logic and proper empirical method is the only way the whole world can arrive at an agreement on the truth about anything Quote: it is better to be good to each other and to build on what we all agree to be true, than to insist that we all think alike
I think the last point is important, we as humans need to live with what we have, progess with what we have and no back track trying to convert each other to his/her own ideals. What ever happened to freedom of thought?
LinLin-Sama wrote: People are ment to die. If they die it's just because God wants to end their sufferings here on earth. Here is my two-cents on this. If there is a 'God' and he/she is an all powerful being why is there suffering at all? If there is a 'God' shouldn't we all be living in paradise feel from evil and have eternal happiness?
If God did exist couldn't he/she stop Adam and Eve from eating the forbidden fruit preventing all of man-kind to be cursed, God could of even prevented Satan from talking to them yet alone keep him in hell. If God existed there would be no war, suffering, famine and countless loss of innocence life. To me the actions of God in the bible just make me realise that there is no God. How can someone like God cause and watch so much suffering happen in the whole and not do anything? Wiping out all of man-kind except two of each animal and Noah's family seems like God is a mere child, angry that his plans did not work.. And why pick just Earth to watch over when the universe is so big?
I can never believe in any god, and even if it was proven that a god existed I would not worship him/her and change my ideals.. My ideals are mine and no one can ever force me to do or say things just because they are all-powerful. If God existed and asked me to murder my family for the benefit of man-kind I would refuse. Let's face it, murder is evil and who wants to follow an evil master?
I understand that my post may cause people to get angry, but feel that I needed to say this as I did not agree with some of what was posted in this thread.
~Del |
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| davedim |
Posted: Nov 18, 2006 10:00 pm |
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フレンジャー

Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 934
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Although I am religious, I don't hold gods in any higher regard than I do humans.
I agree with what you said. If god is all powerful, then he/she is probably evil. People should know what is evil and what is good without a priest or monk telling them so.
Although, I also believe that morality is relative to one's situation.
If anyone wants to argue against that point, then I'd be happy to get my Nietzche on.  |
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| Mansley |
Posted: Nov 18, 2006 10:04 pm |
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フレンジャー

Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 868
Location: Los Angeles, California
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davedim wrote: Although I am religious, I don't hold gods in any higher regard than I do humans.
well then...i am curious. what makes a god a god if you do not think they are any better than humans? if you would worship a god, then do you also worship humans? |
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| davedim |
Posted: Nov 18, 2006 10:08 pm |
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フレンジャー

Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 934
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My religion doesn't worship gods.
I believe that if you are born as a god, then you are only concerned with your own happiness, and so you won't attain enlightenment as a god.
You understand?  |
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| Jester |
Posted: Nov 18, 2006 10:20 pm |
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フレンジャー

Joined: 27 Feb 2006
Posts: 843
Location: Canada
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davidim wrote: I believe that if you are born as a god, then you are only concerned with your own happiness, and so you won't attain enlightenment as a god.
Gods are only concerned with their own happiness in you religion? That's a bit odd, but a pretty interesting point of view. Exactly what religion are you part of?
del wrote: If God did exist couldn't he/she stop Adam and Eve from eating the forbidden fruit preventing all of man-kind to be cursed, God could of even prevented Satan from talking to them yet alone keep him in hell. If God existed there would be no war, suffering, famine and countless loss of innocence life. To me the actions of God in the bible just make me realise that there is no God. How can someone like God cause and watch so much suffering happen in the whole and not do anything? Wiping out all of man-kind except two of each animal and Noah's family seems like God is a mere child, angry that his plans did not work.. And why pick just Earth to watch over when the universe is so big?
Okay, I'm just pointing out facts now. I'm not trying to stir up trouble; I'm just analyzing it from both points of view like anybody with a scientific mind.
If there is a 'God' (I'm going to stop using quotes after this for multiple reasons) he is all-powerful and he's timeless and all the super power stuff you dream about. He could've stopped Adam and Eve from eating the forbidden fruit, he could've let everyone survive the flood, and he could've put the devil in his place too. So, why didn't he? The theory is that God has a grand plan, a destiny for the world. He's probably shooting for this paradise we speak of right now and all of these 'bad things' are necessary steps to reach such prosperity. Why kill innocent people? Innocent people should not fear death because they're going to go some where pretty sweet when there time's up. That doesn't really justify it but if you knew that your death would save countless people in the future and allow them to live lives filled with nothing but joy, would you do it? Maybe God knows that these 'sacrifices' would and only takes what is needed. As for only picking Earth to watch over, there really isn't any proof that God is or isn't; that's kind of a moot point.
I, for one, actually think the Bible can't be used in an argument against God because it was written my mortal hands and therefore isn't necessary deemed as 100% accurate truth. I actually have my own reasoning for why there may not be a God but I'm not here to change anyone's opinions.
You opinion's still a valid one and one I actually shared with you a few years ago, the only thing you said that sort of irked me a little is 'there is no God'. That's a bit over the top; I guess you did give us fair warning at the end though.
Does anyone else think this thread is overdue for a name change or something? |
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| davedim |
Posted: Nov 18, 2006 10:29 pm |
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フレンジャー

Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 934
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Jester wrote: davedim wrote: I believe that if you are born as a god, then you are only concerned with your own happiness, and so you won't attain enlightenment as a god.
Gods are only concerned with their own happiness in you religion? That's a bit odd, but a pretty interesting point of view. Exactly what religion are you part of?
Well, actually, I didn't really explain myself properly.
I'm a Buddhist. Yes, a Scottish Buddhist.
Buddhism doesn't really account for the existence of gods. It's left up to the individual, although in some places it's discouraged, I think...
To Buddhists that do believe in gods of some sort, those gods are not all-knowing (or even very intelligent), all-powerful, or all-present. They are just human beings who have achieved an important position in the universe due to their good deed while here on Earth. They aren't even "above" the Buddha in terms of knowledge or understanding. Being a god also isn't permanent - gods, too, are subject to "decay and death" over time.
Because of this, it doesn't really matter to me whether gods exist or not.
Jester wrote:
Does anyone else think this thread is overdue for a name change or something?
And yes it is.  |
Last edited by davedim on Nov 18, 2006 10:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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| Jester |
Posted: Nov 18, 2006 10:40 pm |
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フレンジャー

Joined: 27 Feb 2006
Posts: 843
Location: Canada
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| Wow, that's pretty cool. In that sense God isn't the alpha and the omega; it's just sort of a rank I guess. Did I get that right? |
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| davedim |
Posted: Nov 18, 2006 10:47 pm |
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フレンジャー

Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 934
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Yeah, that's one way of putting it I guess.
There is a hell in Buddhism as well. Well, there are a few actually...
Those with sufficiently negative karma are reborn there, where they stay until their negative karma has been used up, at which point they are reborn in another realm.
Quite hard to explain actually.  |
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| del |
Posted: Nov 18, 2006 10:54 pm |
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大好きだよ。

Joined: 09 Jun 2006
Posts: 211
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
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Quote: From Homer Simpson: "What if we picked the wrong religion? Every time we go to church we're just making God madder and madder!") Aren't thesists ever scared that through all the years of worship they could go to hell or receive divine punishment for chosing the wrong religion/god?
Jester wrote: He's probably shooting for this paradise we speak of right now and all of these 'bad things' are necessary steps to reach such prosperity. Why kill innocent people? Innocent people should not fear death because they're going to go some where pretty sweet when there time's up. That to me is not paradise. There should be no need for murder, killings and innocent lives being lost for this 'paradise', acts of evil can not possibly lead to paradise.. they lead to greed and power struggles, just look at the world now. America and the whole war against terrorism seems to have made the situation in the Middle East even worse, sure he can be seen as a tool of God. But why does God need to condone killing and murder in the first place? God to me seems to be a really evil person, who likes to have fun with his 'play things'
Jester wrote: That doesn't really justify it but if you knew that your death would save countless people in the future and allow them to live lives filled with nothing but joy, would you do it? Maybe God knows that these 'sacrifices' would and only takes what is needed. As for only picking Earth to watch over, there really isn't any proof that God is or isn't; that's kind of a moot point. That is like saying you would kill your own parents for the good of man-kind. I would not as I find this morally incorrect, no matter if God or a divine being commanded me to. I would rather die than let an evil master command me to do evil acts.
Quote: From Ebon Musings: According to its proponents, God has offered humans a choice: to accept and worship him, or to reject him. People who choose to worship him will ascend to Heaven when they die, where they will receive an infinite reward. People who choose to reject him will be cast into Hell, where they will receive an infinite punishment.
We are always told be others that we have free will. But as this quote points out there is no free choice in this at all. Its either worship or go to hell... I myself can not believe in this ideal, I live without religion, I am still happy and I have morals (and many Christians have told me it is pointless to have morals without religion) this is another reason why I can not believe in God or any god/goddess in that matter.
Jester wrote: the only thing you said that sort of irked me a little is 'there is no God'. That's a bit over the top; I guess you did give us fair warning at the end though.
I do not think that is over the top, I can not bring myself to believe in an all powerful and invisible being, who is just a screw-up. If he is all powerful and good, why did he create such a defective world in the first place? Why does he need to condone killing just to prove a point? He could of easily made a paradise and not have to intervene by killing countless of innocent lives just to prove a point (story of Noah's Ark). God to me is just a spoilt child throwing a fit because his 'plans' did not work.
Quote: From Ebon Musings: As it turned out, at some point during those first six days God had also created the angels, to serve him and praise him for all eternity. However, one angel didn't care for this arrangement. Satan - who according to some sources was the highest and wisest of all the angels - denounced God, declared war on his maker, and convinced a full third of the heavenly host to join his rebellion against the throne. How he was able to accomplish this is not clear. Did God create one-third of his angels defective?
At this point, God could have used his omnipotent power to zap Satan and the rest of the rebel angels out of existence entirely. Or he could have changed them with a snap of his all-powerful fingers, fixing the flaws in their personalities and returning them to a state of goodness and obedience. But he did neither. Instead, for unclear reasons, he actually engaged the rebels in battle, and of course defeated them easily. He then cast them out of Heaven and created a fiery pit called Hell in which he would imprison and torture them forever as punishment for their treason.
If God really did exist he would of done one of the two things in the second paragraph... why did he let us continue to suffer? This makes no sense, God is not a perfect being like so many people are led to believe. An almighty being like God could easily turn this defective world in a utopia for all of us to live, yet after so many thousands of years we still live in a world full of hate and destruction...
davedim wrote: Those with sufficiently negative karma are reborn there, where they stay until their negative karma has been used up, at which point they are reborn in another realm.
This seems better than eternal damnination...
~Del |
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