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Heavy music...?

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bankai
Posted: Sep 01, 2007 12:15 am Reply with quote
甘えんぼ 甘えんぼ
Joined: 01 Feb 2006 Posts: 68 Location: England
Revisiting this thread has been quite an interesting read! I'm so surprised with all that has been said throughout this thread, people talking about blast beats and 'nasum'?! haha what!!! they are even a bit too extreme for me to handle unless I'm really in the mood.

It just seemed so unlikely to me in the past that so many people would listen to music with a taste as diverse as my own or maybe it's just the crazy people on this forum haha, I think it's great though.

Heisei wrote:
I listened only to heavy music before a year (90% American), but as I found about J music, my interest into it slowly lost. But I still listen to J-Rock, like The GazettE, Kagrra, Gackt, so I can´t say I don´t listen to it anymore, it only changed to 95% Japanese and 5% other. Smile But I mostly listen to J-Pop now..


I'm going to see The GazettE in Oct! they are coming to England, and the show has already sold out! I didn't realise they had a big fan-base over here.
 
Heisei
Posted: Sep 01, 2007 3:37 am Reply with quote
上塩タン焼680円 上塩タン焼680円
Joined: 19 Mar 2007 Posts: 375 Location: Prague, Czech Republic
^ Really? I´m going to see their Berlin concert, really looking forward to it! This would be the first time I see a Japanese interpret live.
 
sljinu
Posted: Sep 01, 2007 5:40 am Reply with quote
ユメクイ ユメクイ
Joined: 02 Aug 2007 Posts: 1203
Mojo Pin wrote:
mu•sic
–noun
1. an art of sound in time that expresses ideas and emotions in significant forms through the elements of rhythm, melody, harmony, and color.


Well sorry but it is, if you did not define Metal as music you would infact be saying, "that music doesn't exist which it does". It infact is a sound, maybe sounds more to you like a "trainwreck", but it expresses the idea of emotion as stated above, no mater how depressing or graphic it gets. Metal has all that is defined on top.

Also you can have your opinion on it all you like, even though im not a big fan of metal. Be respectful to the people who like this expression of art which is classed under the category of "music" from what is defined above.

In essence, the truth is that music can actually be interpreted in any way by the listener, just as paintings or sculptures are in visual arts. It goes beyond the technicalities and conditions that must be satisfied. What you said was true, but there's more to it. You cannot completely define music because there is just no single definition to it. It isn’t a science.
Metal is considered as "random noise" to some (eg me) while something like improvised jazz may be too complicated or too random for others because of its more unorganized, free style. Pop may be considered too plain and over repetitive as well, or classical could be too structured and restricted for ones liking. Each of those can be considered as music, or not as music depending on which argument you choose. One may like to think of classical music as the root of all music, the basics where everything stemmed from. Another may say it is not free or filled with passion, it's a bunch of dots with different stems dotted across a piece of paper.
Metal can be considered as an art, and for the sake of the argument, let's say it's like random splotches of paint on a piece of paper. Some people may see some form of beauty within it, and appreciate the skill behind it, others will see...random splotches of paint. That is the equivalent of what I see in metal. It has no depth to it, it's plain, and it's of a rather low level of sophistication. That’s not to say it is, one (or rather, I, if you wish) will never know how many hours the painter could have spent, carefully detailing the patches of paint, or redoing it over and over again and again, changing the slightest details, just as the composer/band could have done. But what I see is that it is indeed shallow, plain and rather primitive.
The real beauty behind all of this however, is despite all my distaste for such a genre, is that it is a part of the music world whether I like it or not. We can all choose what we want to interpret as music or art.

So my comment was by far not intended to be disrespectful. Admittedly, I was careless and chose to express my distaste for metal and challenge others, so I will be more careful of that later. But as a summary, I interpret metal as noise and that is my interpretation. And while that may be my choice, there no doubt will be many others who do interpret this form of sound, as music.
 
mangomalte
Posted: Sep 01, 2007 9:18 am Reply with quote
クラゲ, 流れ星 クラゲ, 流れ星
Joined: 10 Oct 2006 Posts: 3587 Location: Sweden
i don't listen to much heavy music, pretty much only Dream Theater and The Black Mages. Wink
 
Tdclarke
Posted: Sep 27, 2007 12:31 pm Reply with quote
金魚花火 金魚花火
Joined: 15 Sep 2007 Posts: 174 Location: United Kingdom
I listen to some Dream Theater, Pantera, Metallica, Black Sabbath and RATM, but then that's about it (and some of those are really "heavy" as such). I like listening to heavy music quite often, but then I move towards a more Classic Rock (Zeppelin, etc) most of the time. Then there's the occasional random artist (like Otsuka Ai, currently my only pop artist) which just stands out.

I think too many people seem to think that you can only listen to one genre, but I find that Pantera followed by some pop is a perfect mix, even though the contrast is huge Giggle

Tdclarke
 
depressant
Posted: Nov 17, 2007 11:42 am Reply with quote
ネコに風船 ネコに風船
Joined: 11 Sep 2005 Posts: 507 Location: Malaysia
if you don't recognise metal as a form of music, i can't say that hip hop, rap belong under music too, but fall under literature instead.

There's too much about metal that you should know regarding its root with music, and i don't think that you should know it since you never seemed to bother about how musical metal music is in fact.

A metal drummer will perform a 64 note double bass blast beat, a guitarist can play 6 notes up and down in a second, same as well the bassist with the tremolo picking. And the vocalist can perform up to 6 different different style of vocals in a song. So would you still deny metal as a form of music? Even though this particular genre is standing at the extreme level of music?

It's very subjective for a person to define the true meaning of music. For me, at least i'd say metal music require skills not less than classical and jazz to play with. And as you could see, pop music is plain simple and they're merely repetitions. But i'd say metal is not. It's still the only genre of music where its true style is still well maintain for decade and decades.
 
Tdclarke
Posted: Nov 17, 2007 4:35 pm Reply with quote
金魚花火 金魚花火
Joined: 15 Sep 2007 Posts: 174 Location: United Kingdom
^Definitely agree with you there Nod

sljinu wrote:
I dont mean to heavily criticise the metal genre or any of their fans but can it really be called music? From the music I heard, a lot of it seems to be just screaming, no real singing. While it does add some variety and spice to the music world, I still dont (and dont believe I ever will) agree with it being termed as "music"


That's the problem - Too many people label metal as "screaming" No . It's not at all (well, if you select the right artists Tongue ). Like Rock, metal is a huge genre, and to class all of it in one light is just wrong No

Plus, as depressant said, metal/rock is often far more based on the instrumental side of things rather than solely the vocalist, which is completely unlike pop, where the singer is the focus, and the musical-side of the track is based around that, and has very little importance hmm (often anyway). You would never see some huge experimental movement for 5 minutes in the middle of a pop song, which is a shame, as they could get some decent musicians in to do some epic solos, etc for pop, just the general consensus says that most people don't like instrumental tracks, and prefer 3/4 minute songs Crying (i await the 15+ minute pop song Giggle )

I agree with you though - Some bands ruin and disgrace the term "metal" as they just scream while playing a fast riff that sounds awful and out of tune. That isn't music, but Metal can sound really good, you just have to adapt to that style of music (like how I have adapted to listen to pop). A lot of people go for the likes of Metallica as they are really mainstream, and are not heavy really. Other than that, I don't know a really popular metal band Confused (one that doesn't just have listeners from the metal fans). Master of Puppets is wicked, but other than that metallica get repetitive....really repetitive. Dream Theater are much better Wink plus they don't scream/shout!

But it's your choice, so I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion Giggle

Tom
 
Sonny
Posted: Nov 19, 2007 6:26 pm Reply with quote
Happy Days Happy Days
Joined: 13 Nov 2007 Posts: 91 Location: Melbourne, Australia
Never listen and never liked screamo, deathcore, grindcore, blackcore, and many other words ending with core... I have many friends who like those music, I respect that, but... I never understand what they are saying, or rather screaming... Also the sounds they make, (pig noises?!) I find quiet, umm weird?

To sum it up, I like music that has emotion and meaning to it. And of course music that I can understand, and does not hurt my ears...
 
cnix
Posted: Dec 21, 2007 7:01 am Reply with quote
金魚花火 金魚花火
Joined: 29 Oct 2006 Posts: 189
Tdclarke wrote:
^Definitely agree with you there Nod

sljinu wrote:
I dont mean to heavily criticise the metal genre or any of their fans but can it really be called music? From the music I heard, a lot of it seems to be just screaming, no real singing. While it does add some variety and spice to the music world, I still dont (and dont believe I ever will) agree with it being termed as "music"


That's the problem - Too many people label metal as "screaming" No . It's not at all (well, if you select the right artists Tongue ). Like Rock, metal is a huge genre, and to class all of it in one light is just wrong No

Plus, as depressant said, metal/rock is often far more based on the instrumental side of things rather than solely the vocalist, which is completely unlike pop, where the singer is the focus, and the musical-side of the track is based around that, and has very little importance hmm (often anyway). You would never see some huge experimental movement for 5 minutes in the middle of a pop song, which is a shame, as they could get some decent musicians in to do some epic solos, etc for pop, just the general consensus says that most people don't like instrumental tracks, and prefer 3/4 minute songs Crying (i await the 15+ minute pop song Giggle )

I agree with you though - Some bands ruin and disgrace the term "metal" as they just scream while playing a fast riff that sounds awful and out of tune. That isn't music, but Metal can sound really good, you just have to adapt to that style of music (like how I have adapted to listen to pop). A lot of people go for the likes of Metallica as they are really mainstream, and are not heavy really. Other than that, I don't know a really popular metal band Confused (one that doesn't just have listeners from the metal fans). Master of Puppets is wicked, but other than that metallica get repetitive....really repetitive. Dream Theater are much better Wink plus they don't scream/shout!

But it's your choice, so I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion Giggle

Tom


some bands disgrace the term metal as they just scream while playing a fast riff that sounds awful? did you miss the part where music was an expressive medium free to interpretation? the term metal itself, is a general term describing the many sub-styles of metal that exist. for someone who only knows american metal bands, you sure let your bias do alot of the talking. i'm sorry if your 'sophistication' predisposes you to think a certain way, but don't down talk the millions who do take favor to the style of music you dislike.

And why is death metal being compared to splotches of paint 'for the sake of argument?' Why not a painting of something significant and beautiful, as many seem to have a clear definition of what beauty is in terms of music. As non-partial as people try to sound, I still sense a hint of 'hate' in the way people talk about death metal.
 
Tdclarke
Posted: Dec 30, 2007 5:40 pm Reply with quote
金魚花火 金魚花火
Joined: 15 Sep 2007 Posts: 174 Location: United Kingdom
^Woah man! Surprised I like how out of all the replies you attack mine Confused (the one trying to defend metal). Anyways Shocked - I just wanna say I wasn't attacking any musical style, I totally agree with what you are saying - Music is freedom, and people complaining at each other's musical style is total stupidity No I was looking at this just earlier (My Chemical Romance Last.fm shoutbox). It's how "metal fans have to attack 'emo' bands" No It's so pathetic blindly attacking a genre/artist, when all they argue is the opposing person's traits, not the band itself Confused (other than, "they are gay" or the likes - That's great reasoning: "I don't like something...because...erm...it's gay" Sneeze ).

I was just saying my taste in the fact that Ioften don't like "screaming" - Hmm....reading my comment again probably did give the wrong impression Embarassed I was just giving my opinion...my contribution to this thread saying how I feel about "Heavy Music...". Now to that you disagree is fine, as that would be your opinion, but to say I am wrong? There is no answer man! As long as we all have the freedom to think, there never is a definite; a final answer.

True, I have heard mainly American rock/metal bands....(oh, and English metal exists too ya know Wink ), besides, I'm always up for recommendations if you have any Smile So rather than complain how I haven't expanded my metal tastes globally, maybe offer some advice, as if you are going to say how I was "attacking" certain music styles, then aren't you doing the same to me by saying my response is irrelevant until I have heard foreign metal? Confused (which I have, just I have gone to extents you are proposing)

Quote:
i'm sorry if your 'sophistication' predisposes you to think a certain way, but don't down talk the millions who do take favor to the style of music you dislike.


Dude Shocked I don't actually see any kind of attack

Anyways, I don't like bad feelings, so my apologies

Quote:
And why is death metal being compared to splotches of paint 'for the sake of argument?' Why not a painting of something significant and beautiful, as many seem to have a clear definition of what beauty is in terms of music. As non-partial as people try to sound, I still sense a hint of 'hate' in the way people talk about death metal.


Erm...yeah Confused Blank stare

sljinu wrote:
It has no depth to it, it's plain, and it's of a rather low level of sophistication.


So unture - But then like every genre, there are bands that have meaning to their songs/lyrics, and those that don't (neither being any better/worse). To say little depth kinda gets me - Metal has an extensive depth throughout sub-genres, each exploring differently, with many meaningful scenarios being covered, and many different styles of music being amalgamated with metal-styles (pop, jazz, classical, etc). But then every genre borrows something from another genre hmm

Plain - No way...no way...no music genre is plain No

Low level of sophistication - Ouch....that is a little harsh (basically saying metalheads are....stupid? Surprised )

But then that's one's opinion, and no one can, or should try to change that - We're all individuals right? But it's good to share opinions to see what a different mind is like Smile


edit:
Me wrote:
Some bands ruin and disgrace the term "metal" as they just scream while playing a fast riff that sounds awful and out of tune. That isn't music,


OK, officially the stupidest thing I have ever written - What was I thinking Confused I don't know why, I don't agree with that at all!!!! Mad
 
someone or oher
Posted: Jan 27, 2008 5:16 am Reply with quote
桃ノ花ビラ 桃ノ花ビラ
Joined: 21 Jan 2008 Posts: 25 Location: Under the floorboards
Intriguing thread this... Exposes a lot of biases and relative levels of research.

Remember that pop is simply short for "popular music", not as in widely liked, but made by members of the populace. Jazz is possibly the only music to have a transition from being a popular music to a status akin to classical music. Pop music being what it is; folk, blues, rock 'n' roll, rhythm 'n' blues, metal, punk, hip hop, techno, ballads, etc, etc are all sub-genres of pop music.

Heavy Metal in its recognised form as been around for about 40 years, starting with the likes of Black Sabbath. Since then, it has evolved (as all music must) into a vast series of subcategories a la Black, Death, Thrash, Metalcore, Folk Metal, Viking Metal, etc. It's hardly something you can consider in monolithic terms. To compare the Australian death metal band Portal (who use an awful of atonality and dischords to create music that is rather unsettling and very dark) to the likes of Twisted Sister (who these days would be considered a hard rock band but whom, in 1984, were definitely considered heavy metal) would be just as fatuous and pointless and comparing Kylie Minogue to Dexys Midnight Runners.

"Unmusical" is an accusation that is levelled to any and all forms of music that are either simply disliked or are fundamentally not understood. Musique Concrete, House/Techno music are often faced with the same issues from those that don't like or understand them.

As far as vocals go... screams, shouts and growls are the perfect accompaniment to the heavier, more extreme end of metal. You don't downtune a guitar to C or B and play at 240+ bpm to have somebody crooning over the top, it doesn't work. By the way, don't fooled into thinking that the apparently throat rendering shrieks and growls that come from metal vocalists don't require immense control and skill. Make those noises without knowing what you're doing and you will destroy your voice. There are vocalists out there who've been going for 20 odd years and can still sound like they gargle glass because they have mastered the exercises necessary to consistently vocalise like that. I won't call it singing. It isn't and should not be judged as such.

Now, I won't say that there isn't a vast amount of rubbish in metal. Of course there is! Just as most of pop music, dance music, punk and everything else is crap. So too with all forms of music. It's only ever a comparatively small number of artists/bands that are worth listening to, the rest will only ever bore or annoy.

And what bands do I consider "worth listening to"? Depending on what I'm looking for... here's an extremely short list:

Passion: Bathory's Hammerheart album (the original Viking Metal).
Beautiful melodrama: My Dying Bride - Turn Loose The Swans; Anathema - The Silent Enigma (both Yorkshire Doom bands)
Anger: Kreator - Extreme Aggression (Thrash metal)
Technical exhibitionism: Watchtower - Control & Resistance (Thrash Metal); Ephel Duath - The Painter's Palette.
Thoughtful metal: Age Of Silence - Acceleration

OK, I'll shut up now Embarassed
 
Tdclarke
Posted: Jan 27, 2008 3:36 pm Reply with quote
金魚花火 金魚花火
Joined: 15 Sep 2007 Posts: 174 Location: United Kingdom
Good point

I think that is the end of this discussion though Giggle
 
bumble.bee
Posted: Mar 13, 2008 2:05 pm Reply with quote
金魚花火 金魚花火
Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 159 Location: Vienna
i listen to metallica...versailles.. don't know, does that count?? Confused
 
zyoeru
Posted: Oct 28, 2009 4:00 am Reply with quote
さくらんぼ さくらんぼ
Joined: 27 Oct 2009 Posts: 48 Location: Barnsley
I love Nightwish! ^_^
Also Cradle of Filth and Children of Bodom...rarely listen to heavy music atm, I'm going through a trance/pop/r'n'b phase. ^_-
 
hitomi #1
Posted: Oct 29, 2009 9:38 pm Reply with quote
PEACH PEACH
Joined: 17 Feb 2009 Posts: 1933 Location: On Ai's speed dial!
Check out the Japanese band Bo-Peep, Nod it's 3 girls, not quite metal but very heavy rock, I'm not a huge fan of the genre, but they are good, they have some, but not enough, videos on YT. Blank stare
 
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